The System for Touching Grass (The Extreme Version) with Tayler Cusick Hollman

Julie Fried (00:01.881) Welcome back to the System for Everything podcast. Today’s system tip, if you’re feeling burnt out, try replacing screen time with an activity that requires a helmet and a signed waiver. Welcome back everyone. This is the System for Everything, the podcast where we believe there’s a system for just about anything. including building a life you actually want to log off for. Today’s guest is Taylor Cusick-Hulman. She is a marketing consultant turned small business champion and the founder of Engie, which is a project management platform built specifically to bring planning and doing your marketing into one place. After more than a decade helping small business owners figure out what to say, where to show up and how to stay consistent, Taylor saw the real problem wasn’t just strategy. It was doing the strategy. So she took everything she learned and built Engie to help business owners turn ideas into actual finished marketing. Because let’s be honest, most of us didn’t start our businesses to become full-time marketing managers. But with the right system, it doesn’t have to feel like a shit show. Taylor is officially the first repeat guest of this podcast, which honestly… feels earned when you’re simultaneously building software and casually throwing yourself down mountains for fun. After our conversation previously about marketing systems, I realized there was a completely different episode hiding underneath it because Taylor has built something a lot of business owners say they want, but few actually create, which is a business that supports a real life outside of your work. So today we’re talking adventure, identity outside of entrepreneurship, why hobbies matter more than we think, and what it looks like to intentionally create a life that pulls you away from your laptop instead of just chaining you to it. Welcome, Taylor. Tayler (01:55.31) Hello, hello. You know, listening to the introduction made me realize how many times in my life I’ve signed a waiver saying, realize I could die and I won’t sue you if I do. Not that I could sue someone if I died, but yeah, I’ve signed a lot of those waivers. Yes, okay, I’m gonna need to put together something so that you’re gonna be the person going after folks when I fall to my impending death. Julie Fried (02:14.203) I’ll do it on your behalf. Julie Fried (02:26.875) Alright, let’s start with the system reboot as we always do a quick reset to start our episode with some humor and humanity. What is your most controversial snack opinion? Tayler (02:38.885) controversial snack opinion that snack can just can be the meal. I mean maybe that’s not super controversial but yeah snack can that can be lunch or or in between lunch and dinner meal. It’s fine. Julie Fried (02:45.731) Yes, agreed. Julie Fried (02:54.861) Yeah, what is one thing you own that immediately tells people who you are? And I actually have an opinion on something that you own that I think it is, if you don’t say what it is. Tayler (03:04.685) Ooh, I mean, my booby pillow. It’s currently in a box because we just moved and we’re in process of unpacking things, but I have this fuzzy pillow that’s white and it has two black lines and two dots in the center. It’s boobies. And I love it so much. that too, that too. Julie Fried (03:29.58) I was going to say your glittery sequin rainbow jacket that you ski in. Yeah. Tayler (03:36.523) That too. Julie Fried (03:38.639) Alright, if your phone could expose one embarrassing habit of yours, what would it be? Tayler (03:43.728) taking screenshots of things that I want to buy but won’t. Julie Fried (03:47.257) Hmm. Always. For me, I think it’s I take tons of screenshots of books I want to read and of recipes I stupidly believe I’ll make. What a fool. I make like four things. Tayler (04:00.375) Same. Same. like, I have all these, yeah, I think my screenshots show my aspirations of things that I would like to do, but honestly, like, who am I kidding? I’m never gonna get to it. Julie Fried (00:01.185) Alright everyone, you’ve met the personality, now meet the powerhouse. Let’s talk about what it actually takes to build a business that gives you room to live a life outside of it. Preferably one that does not involve me on a mountain bike. Here’s my conversation with Taylor Cusack-Hulman on the system for touching grass, the extreme version. Alright, I think what fascinates me about your hobbies is that they’re impossible to half do. you can’t answer a slack message while flying down a mountain. So, I mean, what happens to your brain when you were skiing or mountain biking that doesn’t happen when you’re resting at home? Tayler (00:30.817) Yeah. Tayler (00:36.013) You cannot. Tayler (00:45.32) I am thinking about nothing else than not colliding with a stationary object. Like honestly, I think that that is a huge part of the reason that these sort of like extreme versions of getting outside and touching grass have become my thing because taking a hot shower, I’m going to be thinking about work. It’s like deep thoughts with Jack Handy. or Jack Hannah, Jack Handy, whatever the skin is on SNL, you know? Jack Handy. Or if I’m just, if I’m sitting anywhere, that’s why I can’t just like go on a walk. Because my brain is going to default mode at that point, which default mode is trying to problem solve things for my business. And when I am… Julie Fried (01:16.385) Jack Handy. Tayler (01:38.206) skiing fast down a steep slope or on a mountain bike, like literally my physical safety is the number one priority and so I cannot think about anything else. Julie Fried (01:51.384) Do you think high achieving people sometimes need that intensity in order to become fully present? Tayler (02:00.038) Yes, but I don’t think it has to do with like high achieving because I know plenty of high achieving people like you who are compelled in no way, or form to do these things, right? So I… Julie Fried (02:04.183) Okay. No. Julie Fried (02:13.582) my god, everything we’re gonna discuss is my nightmare. Yeah. Tayler (02:16.718) It’s, get a lot of, I get a lot of messages from friends about them being concerned for my safety. And as we’re recording this, it is the start of downhill mountain bike season. And so I refer to this as the most dangerous time of the year for me. You know, you can sing it like the Christmas song, but it’s definitely, it’s, it, I think it’s more about someone’s personality type. Julie Fried (02:27.223) You Julie Fried (02:41.568) Yeah. Tayler (02:42.49) than whether or not they are a driven or motivated person. Because like I said, I know plenty of people who have achieved amazingly awesome things and are like, I’m an indoor cat. Julie Fried (02:56.919) That’s me 100%. I’m not even a cat. I’m like an indoor turtle. What do you think that these experiences kind of teach you about control or risk or trust even that unexpectedly translate back into business? Tayler (03:14.414) Okay, control, risk, and trust. Those are the things you mentioned, right? Okay, so let’s talk about control. Control is, I don’t have control over shit, man. I think I have control, and I can feel in control, and there are things that just happen, even when you feel like, I’ve totally got this. People are gonna hear all of the outdoor sort of phrases in this episode, so. Julie Fried (03:18.486) Yeah. Julie Fried (03:24.727) You Tayler (03:44.578) Sorry, not sorry, but there are these things, they call them snow snakes when you’re skiing. And you’re just like skiing, you’re just skiing and all the, and you’re like, I’m just, cruising and I’m skiing fast and da da. And then all of sudden you just eat shit and you’re like, what happened, right? And it’s not an actual snake, but it’s like, you call them a snow snake because it just, there’s something that grabbed your ski and was like, nope, not today. Or same thing on a mountain bike. You can be riding whatever and. Oftentimes when you eat it, you’re on something that’s like the most benign trail that you would ride, not the most extreme one. And you’ll biff it, right? And you’re just like, cool, I’m on the ground now and that hurt. So what the mountain has taught me about control is that I am not actually in control. Even when I’ve convinced myself that I am. Risk is the lesson, the big lesson that I’ve learned Julie Fried (04:20.545) Yeah. Julie Fried (04:34.668) Yeah. Tayler (04:42.911) around that is that nothing that I do in business is as scary as the things that I go and do outside. And so it has really helped me become someone who is like, why not? Like, let’s do it, because it can’t hurt as much. Why not try? Because it can’t hurt as much as my body hitting the ground at high speed. So like. Julie Fried (05:03.009) Well, why not try? Julie Fried (05:09.206) Yeah. Tayler (05:10.645) Like what’s the worst that could happen if I’m sitting at my laptop? Literally, like nothing really that bad can happen. So there’s a lot of stuff that being outside teaches me about risk. And then what was the last one? A trust, man, okay. This one I’m gonna have to not get on a soapbox about because I… my goodness, you guys. Okay, so I really only started doing these things Julie Fried (05:24.842) a trust. Julie Fried (05:31.639) I mean, I do love a Taylor soapbox. Tayler (05:40.394) in 2021. So I’m about five years into this. So I started like doing these extreme sports at the age of 35. You know, a full grown adult like who doesn’t have rubber bones like a child. And I, I ride, I ski, I do all these things with typically men who have been doing these things longer than I’ve been alive. That is no joke. I mean, my husband is Julie Fried (05:47.639) You Tayler (06:09.389) 52, 53, 52, was, yeah, whatever the number is. And he started skiing when he was like six years old. So, you know, the math works that way. And these, I say this with all of the love because doing these activities with these men is the reason that I got really good really quickly. But they are constantly telling me to trust my equipment. And I’m like. No guys, like I can’t just trust that my bike is gonna roll over this giant fucking rock. you know? And so there are a lot of moments where I experience how deep you have to dig into yourself to trust something. And that’s, you know, I think that we have some of that experience with humans. in our lives, but we don’t often have that experience with a thing. And my bike or my rock climbing gear, like my harness and my rope and my knot that are keeping me from falling from 50 feet off the deck, right? Like I have to trust those things in a very different way than I typically trust things in my everyday life. So. The control, the risk, the trust, those are three super kind of intense and regularly occurring things that I have to like grapple with and be with in the moment. And those are not things that when I’m doing my work I typically think about. Julie Fried (07:58.487) I think there’s something very interesting about the fact that you also have chosen hobbies where being distracted has actual consequences. And I see a lot in our field, especially with founders, is that the work starts slowly consuming every single available part of your identity. Did you ever have a season where your business became just too much of who you were? Tayler (08:27.533) I’ve definitely had seasons where I have spent too much time working on Engie and I think that that is very, that’s a very typical experience for any business owner. I also, everything about being a startup founder is take what you’ve experienced as a business owner and like pour gas, inject steroids, like give it human growth hormones. Like it is. Julie Fried (08:39.957) Mm-hmm. Tayler (08:55.277) so much more intense in ways that I don’t have the right combination of words to express. Like only other startup founders understand it. And so there have been plenty of times where I went very long stretches of working 14 hour days, six or seven days a week. And that is not bueno for it. Julie Fried (09:21.75) No, it’s also not sustainable. Tayler (09:24.609) Totally. And so there have been moments like that and I had to make a conscious choice to say like that is not gonna work in the long run because if I am not taking care of myself physically and mentally then I can’t do this hard work in the end, right? Julie Fried (09:50.531) Why do you think that entrepreneurs struggle so much to develop hobbies or interests outside of our work? I mean, is it just because we like what we’re doing so much? Because we’re the only kind of people, I guess, out there that got to choose what we do? Tayler (10:07.04) I think that there’s part of that. We’re really excited to do the work, right? Like that’s why we started our businesses, but also… Julie Fried (10:10.657) Yeah. Tayler (10:16.82) You put yourself into the business to a degree that it feels like you’re not doing your business right if you’re not working on it. And especially if you are a household or a single person. Julie Fried (10:35.393) Yeah. Tayler (10:46.294) whose livelihood literally depends on the business, right? Like when I was consulting, Taylor became a successful, you know, the coveted, I hit six figures, you know? Yeah, I know you’re all listening to it, but if you can’t see the eye roll, you can’t see the eye roll that accompanies that phrase, because I hate it so much. Okay, good, good, good. But. Julie Fried (10:50.711) Yeah. Julie Fried (11:08.696) feel like we could hear it. We could hear the eye roll. Tayler (11:14.61) You know, I was, I still am, I’m not married to somebody different, but you know, Brett was corporately employed, so there was this sort of built-in safety net. And so, so when you are that kind of, when you are in that situation where my business is wholly responsible for my ability to pay rent, put food on the table, pay for medical bills, all that kind of stuff, it’s no surprise to me that people, Julie Fried (11:24.61) Yeah. Tayler (11:43.819) work on it every waking moment and it just becomes this like all consuming thing with our lives because it is inextricably linked to our ability to have a life. Julie Fried (11:58.997) Yeah, and the irony of that is that I think having a fuller life often makes people better at their work, makes them enjoy it more. Because I mean, nobody looks back on their life and thinks like, thank God I answered those emails faster. So for you, like what kinds of memories are you intentionally trying to create in this season of your life? Tayler (12:14.86) Yeah Tayler (12:25.612) You know, I want, this sounds so cliche, but I do wanna have a life where when I’m an old fart, I go, I did all the things that I wanted to do, right? I don’t wanna have that regret, like you said, of going like, oh great, so I answered all my emails within 38 minutes. No one cares, that doesn’t add to the, you know. Julie Fried (12:30.488) That’s okay. Julie Fried (12:40.684) Yeah. Julie Fried (12:44.886) Yeah. Tayler (12:55.744) the story of your life. And I feel extremely fortunate. I know that I am extremely fortunate to get to live the lifestyle that I do. Like, have gotten to go on quote unquote once in a lifetime trips many times. yeah, I’ve been hella skiing twice. Julie Fried (13:18.168) Yeah, I’m thinking about you going heliskiing. Heliskiing. Yeah. Nuts. Not interested. Tayler (13:23.488) and I went surfing in, yeah, and the thing that you definitely wouldn’t be interested in is surfing in Indonesia off this tiny little fucking island in the middle of nowhere. Like. Julie Fried (13:35.096) How dare you? I’m an incredible surfer. I took a lesson once when I was 14 and I was amazing. I stood up zero times. That’s the goal of surfing, right? It’s like golf. Who does it the least? Yeah. Tayler (13:44.716) Standing up. I mean, we could create a version of that where it’s like, how many times did you biff it? Julie Fried (13:53.164) Whatever, I’m great at it. You don’t even know I’m basically a dolphin. Tayler (13:58.817) I love it, I love it. But no, I want to have a life where I have gotten to do rad things. And you know, one of the things that also is like in the mix of who Taylor is as a person and what drives her to do this crazy shit all the time is shortly after Brett and I got married, we were driving to the climbing gym and we got in a really bad car accident and I was unconscious for an undetermined amount of time and shockingly, know, Brett walked away with just a couple broken ribs and I walked away with just a really bad concussion. And after that experience, I did more cliched things, like after you have an experience of like, that could have just like been the end, right? That could have been, you know, Julie Fried (14:56.461) Yeah. Tayler (14:58.1) the end date on my gravestone, it made me look at life differently and go, okay, well, as long as I am able-bodied, I should use this body in the way that I want to use it. So that’s another thing that’s in this mix is not taking my physical ability and my presence here on this like tiny spinning rock for granted, because I don’t know how many days that I get. to have to do the things that make me smile. Julie Fried (15:30.838) Are there any systems or guardrails you keep in place to just make sure that that adventure and that joy don’t become things that you earn later? Tayler (15:42.796) That’s a really good question. Yeah, I don’t have to earn my playtime. That’s for sure. My playtime is built into my schedule and that’s because I need it. Yeah, I need it. As much as I talk about, you know, how I, and I do believe that having a routine to come to and get your marketing tasks done on a regular basis is important, I also equally believe that having whatever playtime means to you, Julie Fried (15:47.234) Good. Julie Fried (15:51.461) I love that. Yeah. Tayler (16:11.979) scheduled into your calendar so that you can regularly come to it is just as important for people. like I during ski season, I do not schedule calls before 10 30 or 11 a.m. on certain days of the week because your girl’s gonna be in that rainbow sequin jacket skiing down the mountain and during mountain bike season, it’s gonna be like, you know, once three o’clock rolls around. Brett and I are gonna be riding our bikes out onto the trails. it’s a certain way of just time blocking, controlling my calendar, all that kind of stuff that I am really unapologetic about to make sure that I have the time that I need. Julie Fried (17:02.274) Do think people tend to underestimate how quickly life can just become really repetitive if they’re not intentional? Tayler (17:10.167) my gosh, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And, you know, I am childless by choice. I love the little people in my life. Like the that’s probably not a easy way of saying it. Julie Fried (17:27.64) She loves my child and the other children in her life. Tayler (17:30.854) I love the children in my life. I love the children in my life. I’m obsessed with the children in my life. But I do see my female friends who are so happy and thrilled and exhausted and overwhelmed by parenthood being the people in my life that I see that with the most. Julie Fried (17:33.72) you Julie Fried (17:44.823) Mm-hmm. Tayler (18:00.683) And I know that that is something that comes along with parenthood because, you your kids have routines and those routines are often time or they’re sometimes tied to like physically keeping them alive, but oftentimes they’re tied to raising happy, joyful, well-rounded, wonderful humans. And when that is your focus, Julie Fried (18:01.44) Yeah. Tayler (18:30.399) then I see the mom’s routine becoming very routine, right? And almost locked down. then you pair that with trying to run a business on top of it and hi. Hi, welcome to an impossible, like mission impossible sort of scenario. So I do see it and those are the folks that I see it the most with. I want… Whenever I’m with my girlfriends who are moms, I’m notorious for just walking in the door and folding laundry or doing dishes or doing the things that I physically can see need to be done and not even asking. I just do it because if I can help take care of even a tiny part of this routine that keeps them from having some white space in their own lives, I’m gonna do that. Julie Fried (19:34.956) Alright, final words, what would you say to somebody who is listening to this right now who genuinely doesn’t even remember what they enjoy outside of work anymore? Tayler (19:46.428) shit, Julie, that is, that, I have to tell you, there was a point in my life where I was working so hard that I had this moment where I recognized that I had not experienced joy in a long time. And that was a really fucking hard thing to admit to myself. I was like, you don’t even experience emotions, let alone the really good ones. And so, Julie Fried (19:48.376) Ha! Julie Fried (20:08.268) Yeah. Tayler (20:15.431) If someone is trying to create some semblance of balance in their life or just a little bit of white space, know, what I would say to them is there’s never gonna, it’s like everything else. There’s never gonna be the perfect time. Like you just have to fucking do it. You just have to fucking start and do it and take the time and it is okay to be selfish in moments like these where you just need it. Julie Fried (20:30.753) Yeah. Julie Fried (20:35.693) Yeah. Tayler (20:44.543) because at the end of the day, we are literally, not, we work because we have to work. And I want for everyone to experience life in a way that is exciting to them at whatever level that is. It doesn’t have to be the extreme version, but I want there to be happiness and excitement and companionship and challenge for all of us. Julie Fried (21:14.668) Before we wrap, can you tell everyone where they can find you, where they can follow you, connect with you, and learn more about Engie? Tayler (21:22.143) So for those not 14 hour days that I’m working anymore on Engie, Engie’s website is enji.co and our Instagram is engie underscore co. And there’s really fun stuff going on there. But if you wanna feel like my version of weird and you wanna see more of the, how is Taylor throwing herself down a mountain, then my personal Instagram account is where you can check that out and that’s t-a-y-l-r-d underscore designs. Julie Fried (21:26.584) Ha Julie Fried (21:53.141) and we’ll have all those links in the show notes as well. Alright, before we end I need to discuss something that has become very clear during this conversation, which is apparently that there is an entire category of hobbies that my nervous system has simply rejected. So we are going to close this out with a category I’m calling activities that sound fake to me personally but are somehow real hobbies. Number one, waking up before 5 a.m. voluntarily. Tayler (22:22.473) Yeah, that’s fake. Julie Fried (22:22.784) Number two, open water swimming. Absolutely not. Number three, sleeping in a van recreationally. No. No. Four, those stair climbing races that people do inside skyscrapers. Absolutely not. Have you guys heard of an elevator? Tayler (22:27.379) Nope, absolutely not sharks man. Tayler (22:35.275) I used to own a van before it burned up. Julie Fried (22:48.376) Number five and finally any workout class named after a military term. Alright everyone, if you loved this episode, please send it to the entrepreneur in your life who desperately needs a hobby that is not refreshing their inbox. And if this conversation inspired you to go outside, touch grass, or at the very least, remember you’re a person outside of your business, I think we’ve done our job here. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you are subscribed to the system for everything wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more people find the show and I appreciate it so much more than you know. I’ll see you next week.