The System for Letting Yourself be Bad at Something Again with Thomas Renner

Julie Fried (00:01.608)
Welcome back to the system for everything podcast today’s system tip if you feel yourself growing as a person Quit immediately and return to the comforting prison of competence Welcome back to the system for everything the podcast where we believe there’s a system for just about anything Including building a life you actually want to log off for today’s guest is Thomas Renner He helps high-performing entrepreneurs stop running on empty and start leading from within

With over 15 years in health, wellness, and leadership coaching, Thomas blends breath work, somatic practice, and strategic coaching to help you break the patterns holding you back. The result? Clearer decisions, deeper self-awareness, and a life you actually designed. Thomas is also part of the leadership team behind Inner Child Theater Camp and Experience Design to help adults reconnect with creativity, play, expression, and honestly, the

deeply uncomfortable experience of being a beginner again. Welcome Thomas!

Thomas Renner (01:03.927)
my gosh, that’s so fabulous to hear that being like read out loud by one a phenomenal like speaker yourself. It’s just so I’m like, those words just they were so meaningful to like hear them read out loud to yourself. So thanks so much for that.

Julie Fried (01:18.638)
For little extra background guys, Thomas and I have known each other since we were 18 years old. I think we met like our first week of college.

Thomas Renner (01:27.512)
huh, we were like 22 years ago?

Julie Fried (01:30.126)
True OGs. I think our first Halloween, I think we even did a couple’s costume. I think we went as Danny and Sandy. Our first Halloween at Quartzie together. Yeah. I’m pretty sure, yeah.

Thomas Renner (01:33.083)
Ha

Thomas Renner (01:38.45)
Oh my God, yes. I was scrolling through pictures, because I’m counting down to 40 on my Instagram and I was looking at pictures and for some reason I went a little bit too far. And there’s a picture of you full transparency in a bathing suit. And it was of course from like, I know, but from like a a little, what do we call these? disposable camera. I was like, how did these get on my phone number one? And number two, girl.

Julie Fried (01:44.663)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (01:55.478)
You’re welcome.

Julie Fried (02:00.042)
like a disposable camera. Yeah.

Thomas Renner (02:06.981)
Damn, I gotta send that to you.

Julie Fried (02:09.52)
my god, and I guarantee you I thought I was so like fat at the time. And my god, 40 year old Julie could just be 18 year old Julie’s body again. I would be so much kinder to her. I promise I would be. All right, we are going to get started with our system reboot as we always do a quick reset to start our episode with some humor and humanity. If you had to give a TED talk with zero prep, what topic are you choosing?

Thomas Renner (02:21.361)
Thomas Renner (02:38.523)
How to play.

Julie Fried (02:39.984)
I love that. Alright, what fictional character do you think would absolutely thrive at theater camp?

Thomas Renner (02:49.595)
I don’t know why, but Arthur.

Julie Fried (02:52.558)
Like the little cartoon, the little… He’s an aardvark? Is he an aardvark?

Thomas Renner (02:56.387)
Ardvark. I think it’s Ardvark. That’s the first thing that… Yeah, I think that that was just the first thing that came to mind.

Julie Fried (02:59.512)
feel like he would have so much fun it would bring it out at him. Aww. Yeah, and then DW would be begging to go. Alright, and because I think some people need a freaking refresher on what is not acceptable, what is your most irrationally strong opinion about audience etiquette?

Thomas Renner (03:24.433)
Repeat the question.

Julie Fried (03:26.284)
What do you think is the most acceptable thing that people currently do that is not acceptable for as an audience member? Like being on their phones, talking back to performers.

Thomas Renner (03:42.231)
to be opening up candy.

Julie Fried (03:44.99)
Mmm. You guys gotta have that pre-opened, fools.

Thomas Renner (03:46.514)
Like in the most intimate, in the intimate moment, in like the quietest moment, I’m like, I’m emoting, like, no, I’m the audience, I’m in the audience sobbing. And they’re like, I’m like, you couldn’t have, the show is two hours, two and a half max, and you have an intermission. Isn’t there a chance that, I don’t know, eat beforehand?

Julie Fried (04:09.754)
Also, if you have hypoglycemia, apologize if you think I’m bullying you, but is there really ever a situation where you NEED a jelly rancher?

Thomas Renner (04:23.789)
In the middle of next to normal?

Julie Fried (04:26.878)
my god. They’re like singing Superboy and the Invisible Girl and you just hear like, I would die.

Thomas Renner (04:34.339)
It just drives me crazy. you know, I, here’s the one thing I’m going to totally break the rules and give you two. Here’s the second thing, but I’m going to give a caveat. It really frustrates me when people get up in the middle of an act or in the middle of the show to leave. And as I get older, I understand that sometimes there are emergencies and I’m like, you know what? don’t know.

Julie Fried (04:40.654)
Okay, I love it.

Julie Fried (04:57.098)
As an IBS queen, I get… No, I’m just kidding. I don’t think I’ve ever had to do that, though.

Thomas Renner (05:02.937)
Well, I’ve never had to do it in the middle. I mean, I’ve, cause I hold it, but I’m just like, I don’t know what they’re going through. They could have just had a surgery. Like they, there’s so many things that could be going, but at the same time.

Julie Fried (05:06.755)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (05:14.996)
so nice to like try to think of their perspective on it. Although probably just in most times they probably are being a douche.

Thomas Renner (05:18.161)
But as an audience member, I’m like, girl.

Yeah, and it’s mostly because well, there’s a there’s a pro and con here because they could be new to theater and I want them to keep coming back. So they’ve never been taught.

Julie Fried (05:31.99)
Yeah, so you don’t want to shame them. Yeah, you don’t want to scare them out of it. All right, everyone.

Thomas Renner (05:36.987)
but sometimes I wanna shake him by the head. Be like, stay in your seat.

Julie Fried (05:39.118)
You have met the personality. Now meet the powerhouse. Somewhere along the way, most of us quietly stop trying things that we are not immediately good at. I know I’m guilty of that. We build competence, routines, careers, identities, and then start protecting them with our lives. Which sounds mature until you realize it can also make your world very, very small. Here’s my conversation with Thomas Renner on the system for letting yourself be bad at something again.

I that a lot of adults say that they want like, you know, novelty or creativity, but when it actually comes time to try something we’re unfamiliar with, I mean, we freeze immediately. What have you noticed about the way adults react to becoming beginners again?

Thomas Renner (06:28.634)
There’s always a lot of deep seated fear. And it’s not always about the fear of necessarily being bad at it. It’s the fear of the unknown of it at all. They’re not sure how it will go. If they’re going to be good at it or bad at it. If someone’s going to judge them. So there’s so much fear around the outcome. But the irony is if you don’t do the thing, there is no outcome. And then you’re living in that deep seated fear and you never leave.

Julie Fried (06:32.843)
Yes.

Julie Fried (06:47.191)
Yes.

Thomas Renner (06:58.158)
And then that becomes that circle. You talked about that quote earlier, that comfort, like for turn back, like the creature comfort is we’re really comfortable living in fear. We’re not comfortable by stepping out of it.

Julie Fried (07:02.594)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (07:08.11)
yes. Do you think adulthood quietly conditions us to avoid that vulnerability?

Thomas Renner (07:17.528)
I think it’s quiet because it’s routine. Like we become into a routine. I talk a lot with clients around our generation specifically. You grow up, you go to high school, you go to college, you get a job, you get married, you’ve got kids, et cetera, right? There’s this pre-planned sort of designed life. And to step away from that would be fearful. So the routine or your, to use your words, the quiet part, like just happening, it’s just routine.

Julie Fried (07:32.29)
Yeah.

Thomas Renner (07:46.614)
And the awareness of noticing what routine you’re in to then make conscious choices to step out of it is the skill that we forget.

Julie Fried (07:55.82)
What kinds of people do you work with at that theater camp environment that tend to struggle the most at first? mean, maybe they grow into it, but who struggles the most?

Thomas Renner (08:06.672)
I think it’s the people that found so much joy in theater when they were younger, or they just enjoy like going to shows and being playful, but they’re in a career that doesn’t really allow that. Or they’ve had some sort of event in their life that had them retreat inwards, and then the external world of joy wasn’t accessible to them. And so they struggle letting it out. And all of a sudden, they’re put in this room with 50 to 70 people.

Julie Fried (08:20.854)
Yeah.

Thomas Renner (08:36.698)
that are also in that same place with like, we just want to express, we just want to play, and we just want to have joy be part of the process. And we generate this, I don’t love this word, but this container, right? This camp that we’ve created that allows for that to just happen. And then we go through exercises and we go through learning a song and we start harmonizing. So we’re introducing these like little steps of discomfort to take them away from that routine that I discussed and pull them into the joy.

Julie Fried (08:47.981)
Yeah.

Thomas Renner (09:06.062)
and they just start to blossom. And by the end, my goodness, by the end, it’s great because it culminates in like, I’m talking about how it works, but it culminates in this share case. We don’t call it a showcase, we call it a share case, because none of it’s mandatory. And by the end of it, we’re all in tears because we’re all just expressing the thing that we’ve been holding back for so long. And we’ve had all types of demographics too, like straight men, queer people, like it just runs the gamut.

Julie Fried (09:27.618)
What hap-

Julie Fried (09:31.775)
Yeah.

I love that. What happens in that group play that is harder to access alone? Like when you make yourself get in that group environment.

Thomas Renner (09:43.92)
happens in the group play.

Thomas Renner (09:51.631)
I think it’s the community because we’re all doing it together and no one’s isolated in. Well, the side quest here is that we call it challenge by choice. So when you’re in the discomfort place, everything is still challenged by choice for doing an exercise that sort of allows for that creativity to expand and allows that joy to be expressed. If it feels in any discomfort, it’s still challenged by choice. None of us mandatory. But because we’re all doing it together.

Julie Fried (09:54.431)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (10:04.877)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Renner (10:21.52)
I think it allows a lot of permission. I talk a lot about permission to both at camp and with clients. You’re like giving ourselves permission to mess it up, to play and be like, oh, okay, that went. There’s this one game that we play called Pony. It’s not genuine, just so we’re clear. But we go around the circle and it’s like our creative partner, Melanie, she’s so brilliant at this, but she, it’s like,

Here comes Thomas on his pony. Here comes Thomas on his pony all through the town. And then we go front to front to front, my baby back. And then it keeps going and the next person is like riding their pony. But then they get to just express how they, mm-hmm.

Julie Fried (11:03.479)
Wait, I remember that. I feel like I did that like at Kat’s when I was a kid. Like the melody just like turned something like on in my brain. Yeah.

Thomas Renner (11:09.133)
You probably did.

Thomas Renner (11:14.064)
And it’s strange, right? Like, when are you going to go into a circle and ride an unfamiliar pony in whatever way you want? And it just we all start laughing and the joy just starts to be expressed. And I think that’s what breaks down some of the perfectionism that we learn or that quiet comfort that you talked about earlier. It just starts to break into that and chisel down. And then it’s less it’s less it’s less fearful.

Julie Fried (11:22.497)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (11:28.107)
that.

Julie Fried (11:43.214)
I think what’s interesting about that is that it really isn’t about just becoming more creative. It is about that becoming less afraid of looking imperfect, which I know, even as, because I haven’t been on a stage in a long time, but even as a former performer, guess, I mean, maybe I’ll get on the stage at some point again. Who knows what life is going to have for me.

I know that I have had those absolute fear moments take over where I’m like, well, I can’t do that. Like, it’s not going to look right and people will notice. And it’s like, they never fricking notice. Who cares? But I think a lot of adults hear the word play and just assume like, this is like frivolous. Like, why is play actually so important?

Thomas Renner (12:30.755)
Well, they think it’s frivolous because they forgot how.

Julie Fried (12:34.812)
Ugh.

Thomas Renner (12:38.009)
When we become adults, we have to start learning how to do things. When you let go of having to know how, it then becomes about the process. And the process is the play. We’re so outcome driven. What is the outcome of this show? What is the outcome of this song gonna be like? What’s the outcome of my voice gonna be? When it’s just a bunch of practice. I like to tell my yoga, go ahead.

Julie Fried (12:41.995)
Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Fried (13:04.043)
Yeah, and we forgot how much fun the practice is.

Thomas Renner (13:07.535)
Yes, it’s that’s the experience and the best way that I can share it, which is a little more technical is your job isn’t the show. Your job is auditioning like as actors. Because you’re just going to play. You’re going to see. So freaking good play. I just stick you like all over. So this is visual. You’re welcome.

Julie Fried (13:18.827)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (13:25.901)
He hit himself in the head with his headphones.

Thomas Renner (13:31.533)
The auditioning is the play and the process is the play and through the play, we end up exploring what outcomes could be. But if we’re attached to the outcome, we’re never really going to play because we’re worrying about how we’re going to do it. And if we’re worried about the how, the play never happens.

Julie Fried (13:45.761)
Have you seen?

Yes. Have you seen people become more willing to take risks outside of camp afterward?

Thomas Renner (13:56.048)
You know, that’s a really great question. We’ve had many people return to camp. when to answer that question, my my experience would be yes, because they come to camp and they’re like these camp aficionados. So they come in and they welcome everyone like that they may not have done before their first camp. So it feels so familiar. We experienced this a lot when we first did LA for the first time. The first time we went to LA.

Julie Fried (14:00.333)
Aww.

Julie Fried (14:15.201)
Love that.

Thomas Renner (14:24.067)
It was pretty much everyone brand new. had a few returning campers from the San Diego area. And then the next time we were in LA, a lot of LA campers came back. And the beginning circle that we did from the first camp to that second one in LA was a different experience. Because those returning campers just welcomed everyone in with their open arms and the fear was already dropped. And then it allowed the other people to have permission to have their fear dropped and just became present to play.

Julie Fried (14:38.657)
Yeah.

Thomas Renner (14:51.811)
So there is definitely a significant difference in when people come in versus how they leave.

Julie Fried (14:56.906)
love that and I think

especially like as an adult, like we can all take things away from that and it doesn’t even have to be at a theater camp. Like I go to conferences and I know for myself, like the second year when I go back, I know that I’m a little bit of a different person because I’m excited to be like an ambassador for that thing and show people. So, you know, whether you’re the new person at school or camp or anything, I think it’s important to have that welcoming spirit for sure.

Thomas Renner (15:09.423)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Renner (15:28.867)
Well, and just stepping out of that quiet comfort zone and trying something new. I mean, it could be as simple as talking to someone at, I don’t know why Chili’s is the example in my head, like going to dinner at Chili’s and you see the host and just like, I don’t know. Maybe that’s my subconscious being like, you need some honey chipotle chicken crispers immediately. You’re like, go to Chili’s and you talk to someone.

Julie Fried (15:40.448)
Show it!

Julie Fried (15:50.861)
I’m cease.

Thomas Renner (15:55.236)
that is at another table or like you compliment their outfit and you’re just engaging in a new conversation, putting yourself in something that would kind of take you out of the comfort space, not because you’re trying for something, it’s really just play. It’s conversational play. It’s experiential play. Go to the pool, talk to your friends. I mean, I imagine that with you like being a new mom, you might encounter moms and now those conversations look different than before you had a child.

Julie Fried (15:57.271)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (16:04.546)
Yes.

Julie Fried (16:19.842)
Different, Totally, and I’m also about to, I mean, maybe she’ll have started school as of when this airs, but she’s been home with the nanny the whole time and I’m gonna be starting, she’s going to school, and that for me, I’m like, god.

to like make parent friends. feel like talking to people. God. they’re all gonna think I’m so weird. I’m gonna be so much older than everyone. That’s what I sound like in my head. And no, yeah, always. Try it.

Thomas Renner (16:49.475)
Can elderly woman?

driving.

Thomas Renner (16:57.089)
I have to do this.

Julie Fried (16:59.79)
Look how that is what it sounds like. That’s horrible. I gotta get a new inner voice. But yeah, I’m having to like step back and be like, okay, here’s how to make new friends again. You know how to do this. You’re not, you were a kid once.

Thomas Renner (17:03.523)
Ha ha ha ha!

Thomas Renner (17:14.201)
Did you see what that word you just used was?

You said, you know how to do this. How? You do know how, and often we just have to be reminded. And who cares if you do know how or don’t know how? Just you’re going to go do it, and then you’re going to learn. And that process there is the what. That’s the play.

Julie Fried (17:22.573)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (17:35.32)
I love that. I love that and that’s…

Thomas Renner (17:37.881)
Cause you’re going to meet moms that you love and moms that you don’t like. And they’re like, well, that play date wasn’t very fun.

Julie Fried (17:40.972)
that is accurate.

That person is boring. Don’t listen to this podcast, Sharon.

Thomas Renner (17:49.615)
Rebecca.

Usually it’s a Jessica. Jessica.

Julie Fried (17:55.873)
is that Jessica? Sorry, Jessica’s. How do you?

Thomas Renner (18:00.471)
My best friend’s name is Jessica with a K.

Julie Fried (18:05.038)
How do you help people push past that feeling of like, that this is so cringe?

Thomas Renner (18:05.145)
so that tracks.

Thomas Renner (18:13.486)
You know, well, in camp specifically, we have a little red, yellow, green system that promotes some self awareness, right? So what we call it in the green, you’re going into something like for me and my sessions being the choreographer currently is I feel green because I’m learning a dance and I love dancing and it’s great. Or maybe you’re in the yellow where you’re like, I’ve danced before. It’s a little strange doing it with a lot of people. I feel like I’m being watched. So I’m in my stretch zone. Yellow would be your stretch zone.

Julie Fried (18:18.732)
Okay.

Thomas Renner (18:42.584)
And then red is kind of like the, nope, this is a no for me, right? So we start supporting building that self-awareness of the green, yellow, red, and we constantly check in with both all the campers and individual campers to give them an idea of like, okay, if this feels cringe, where are you in the red, yellow, green? Because then that gives us the opportunity to support them in the way that they need to be supported. Because every camper is individual and we see them that way, even in the collective community.

and we try to respect what their boundaries are. And when it comes to the being cringe part, I keep seeing this trend on social media of like, you got to put out what you think is cringe because at the end of the day, someone’s going to think it’s cringe. And if that person is you, then that’s your own work to do on letting go of how your belief that it’s cringe when you’re just following your own dream, your own heart, your own desires. And so go ahead.

Julie Fried (19:26.775)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (19:33.514)
I think no matter what, I think no matter what, I would be a red at dance always, as someone who at an audition was once referred to as an actor who moves. Not a dancer. Not a dancer over here.

Thomas Renner (19:47.799)
And, and that is so good to know. I mean, we’ve had, if you think of the ages that we’ve had from like 20 to 70, the level of ability is massive, right? The level of comfortability is massive. And you know, we had this one camper in LA last time I was there, she was really struggling with the movement. And I just pulled her aside and I said, Hey,

Julie Fried (20:00.503)
Yeah.

Thomas Renner (20:11.606)
If at the Sharecase, it’s actually more supportive for you to be in the yellow and stand and sing with everyone and not do the dance, that’s also okay. It’s the challenge by choice that we really lean into, because we want this to be fun and everyone’s version and level of fun and play is a little bit different. But if they get to just experience that once, for me as the movement guide, that’s the win. Because that’s what they’ll take and they’ll do out in the world.

Julie Fried (20:24.344)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (20:29.888)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (20:36.478)
I love that.

Julie Fried (20:40.512)
Yeah. What would you say to somebody who feels like they have lost access to creativity?

Thomas Renner (20:49.198)
Ooh.

my masculinity comes out and my coach comes out when people ask me bold questions like this. You gotta go out and do some sort of action and find out. Because if you’re hesitant or don’t know what the question was, what would I tell someone that struggles to express or find their creativity?

Julie Fried (21:03.886)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (21:14.368)
Yeah, and just feels like they’ve lost access to it, like they don’t even have an outlet.

Thomas Renner (21:18.242)
Yeah, they’re living from that new belief that they don’t have it. In order to challenge the belief, just go out and do something. It might be taking a pottery class. might be like going, do you know what the funnest thing to do? I teach running as well for Equinox and part of the warmup, I ask everyone to skip. Do you know how many people…

Julie Fried (21:34.85)
I’m sorry, hold on, you teach running? Are people not aware that they could just, that, cause I get it when it’s spin.

Thomas Renner (21:47.555)
Mm-hmm.

Julie Fried (21:48.878)
How do you… Like I’m not a runner. Physically I would just die. But I know how.

Thomas Renner (21:56.926)
Right. So there’s great techniques. Maybe I’m no I have to watch your watch your gate.

Julie Fried (21:58.105)
Do I not know how? no. No, I’m now posting a video of myself running on the internet. look like a wild animal, looks insane. No.

Thomas Renner (22:07.791)
That’s the next one. That’s the next video. That’s your challenge by choice, Julie. But when I do the warmup with everybody, I invite everyone to skip. Skipping uses a lot of different planes of motion. It also uses a lot of like musculature with from your ankles all the way up into your shoulders and your spine. And some people don’t know how to skip. So like something as simple as that, like go outside and play hopscotch or go skipping outside or in your house. I don’t know how big your house is.

And that is just like one step in the direction of the creative part of your brain. Or something as simple, I was writing in my journal yesterday, and I don’t know why it popped in my head, but I had this immense gratitude that I could write in cursive. Like, cursive isn’t taught, so maybe go write in cursive. Like that is creating a new neural pathway in your mind to allow creativity to be even something you’re willing to go step into if you feel like you’ve lost it.

Julie Fried (22:52.643)
Aww.

It’s a lost art.

Thomas Renner (23:06.382)
But doing something out in the world, simple. Make it simple. Some people try to go from zero to 100, and then they’re like, oh, nope, it failed, I can’t do it. But if you go from zero to one, zero to 0.5.

Julie Fried (23:18.702)
Yeah.

Thomas Renner (23:22.018)
That’s gonna be where you actually thrive in the creative learning of not knowing how, but playing in it.

Julie Fried (23:31.175)
I love that. What is one thing you wish more adults understood about joy? About play?

Thomas Renner (23:48.78)
Your life will be transformed if you let yourself experience it.

Julie Fried (23:54.06)
that. Okay, before we wrap.

Thomas Renner (23:57.218)
Like some of my most, well, hold on. You know that I’m a talker. the one thing that I say to you specifically, and I have experienced this from you for years, and this is what I do with friends and I love it so much, is just laughing.

Julie Fried (24:00.492)
Nope, I opened it up. Bring it in, bring it in, baby, I love it.

Thomas Renner (24:15.17)
Like when we don’t take ourselves too seriously, which I always struggle with that too. Even when I’m putting out things on social media or when I’m doing something new for my marketing, it’s like, it’s scary, right? But if you don’t take yourself too seriously and we just sit down and laugh, something that I did with you for years in college, because you have the best laugh. That laughter, there it is, exactly. It’s contagious too. When you allow yourself to play and laugh, life is transformed.

Julie Fried (24:25.412)
Yeah.

Julie Fried (24:33.615)
Thank

Thomas Renner (24:47.15)
That’s it.

Julie Fried (24:47.513)
Thank you. Before we wrap, I want you to tell everyone where they can find you, where they can connect with you, learn more about your work, learn more about the camp. Tell us all the things.

Thomas Renner (24:57.242)
Yeah. Love it. Well, I’ll definitely start with the Inner Child Theater Camp. The website is innerchildtheatercamp.com. We have camps all over the country this year. In fact, we’re calling it like our summer tour. We’re going to be in SF, DC, New York, we’re going be at Big Bear in California. We’ve got Chicago on deck as well. There’s a second sleepaway camp in Big Bear as well. And then we’re already looking, oh, Vegas is this year as well. And we’re looking at a 27 already. And

Julie Fried (25:23.769)
Gosh.

Thomas Renner (25:24.93)
That’s the first place to look for me because you’ll definitely see me at I think there’s four camps I’ll be doing for the rest of the year. And then if you’re looking for coaching and play or coaching in just like finding if you’re burnt out somewhere like there’s a myriad of things that I work with with a lot of my clients, which was expressed at the top of the call. But you can catch me at Rennergycoaching.com or you can catch me on Instagram. I’m very visible on Instagram. It’s Rennergycoaching and that’s my last name Renner G Y so Rennergy G Y coaching.

And that’s where you can find me. I’m there all the time. You can DM me. You can, I don’t know, send me a carrier pigeon. I’ll definitely get it. I wish that that was still a thing. Like that would be so cool.

Julie Fried (26:07.055)
Wait, we say that like as if it was a thing when we were youths. It hasn’t been a thing in a long time. We’ve never experienced this.

Thomas Renner (26:14.647)
You mean you didn’t walk to school uphill both ways in the snow, Julie? Like, I did that.

Julie Fried (26:19.041)
In what world would I have ever even gone to school if I had to walk uphill both ways? I would be the least educated person. Absolutely not. I would not even know how to read.

Thomas Renner (26:24.717)
That’s so true.

And that’s the wrong, like you’re the most educated. Like legit. So there was no snow or walking involved.

Julie Fried (26:37.133)
Absolutely not.

Alright, before I let you go, we end every episode with a system shutdown, and today’s feels very appropriate because I firmly believe there are certain songs that can temporarily override your entire personality. Like, you could be the most emotionally reserved person alive, but the second one these songs comes on. You are making eye contact with strangers, you are fully committing to harmonies, and you are behaving like you’ve just been cast in a national tour. So today’s system shutdown is song

that turn ordinary people into theater kids for four minutes. Number one, Somebody to Love by Queen. Number two, Living on a Prayer by Bon Jovi. Number three, Since You’ve Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson. Number four, has been in the hearts of theater nerds for two decades but is now even more relevant because of the movies Defying Gravity from Wicked. And number five,

I love it, you love it, and you know it’s a wedding banger, I wanna dance with somebody by Whitney Houston. The best! Honestly, I think this whole conversation is a good reminder that being fully alive usually requires being a little uncomfortable, a little awkward, and occasionally way too emotionally committed to a song in a Waffle House parking lot.

So if there is something you’ve been wanting to try, create, learn, revisit, but you have been waiting until you are magically good at it first…

Julie Fried (28:09.795)
Maybe this is your sign to stop waiting, or at the very least to dramatically belt a song in your car with unwarranted confidence. And hey, if you have song that instantly turns you into a full theater kid, DM me. I know you have one. If you loved this episode, send it to the friend who desperately needs a hobby that isn’t optimized, monetized, or tied to their personal brand. Make sure you’re subscribed to the system for everything wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you haven’t left a rating or review yet,

Thomas Renner (28:25.259)
Me too!

Julie Fried (28:39.682)
It genuinely helps more people find my little show. I’ll see you next time.